Saturday, January 03, 2009
THE SECRET SINS OF THE ODMs--Part I
ODMing THE ODMs?
Online discernment ministries (ODMs) are indispensable because the brick and mortar churches refuse to carry out the biblical command to warn the flock of wolves and informally (but forcefully) forbid anyone in their midst to do so, as well. Frustrated but resolute, these Christians do what they can to research and expose religious figures involved in deception. One look at my blogroll here at Al Tosap will attest to the fact that I make constant use of them to keep myself informed. The men and women who do this sort of thing are precious soldiers of Christ. We ought to appreciate them. We ought to support them.
They support us.
However, over the last two years, I've come to see that we in the ODM arena aren't without spiritual peril. Nor do I, for a moment, believe that everyone in the ODM community is actually regenerate. I'd like your patience as I list and explain four sins rampant in the ODM world that are hidden, but deadly.
AN OFFLINE EXAMPLE
Now, I'm sure that some of you three who read that last paragraph are thinking something like, "Phil sure is off the deep end. He's calling ODMers unsaved." Well, not really. Only that there's no assurance that all are saved and plenty of evidence from Scripture that within any group of Christians are some wolves. (C'mon, now. If you're an ODMer or if you read ODMs, you major in this stuff.)
I'm sure that many of you are aware of the sad story of Ravi Zacharias. For years I listened to RZ every Sunday evening at 7PM. He was a great Christian apologist. Today he's gone. He's pushing the mysticism against which he once defended the faith. (1) I remind you of this sad, sad saga because it still hurts and because it shows us that...
...anyone can be a wolf.
ETHICS ETHICS ETHICS
Calling others to intellectual honesty with regard to the Bible is an awesome calling, but some ODMs are ethically loosy-goosy in their own right. Plagiarism and sloppy Bible handling are too common. One example of ODMers not doing their Scriptural homework is the wishy-washy way Matthew 18 is treated. The Matthew 18 protocol is misapplied or selectively applied. A ploy of the Emergents is to call into question the reproof of an ODM on the basis that Matthew 18 requires the reprover to first confront anyone named as a false teacher privately before going public with criticism. Matthew 18 doesn't teach this, but I've more than once seen ODMers respond in kind, demanding that the Emergent apologize for their challenge of the ODM on the same basis.
No matter how the ODMer understands Matthew 18, he ought never require of the Emergent what he doesn't also practice. Not only is this sloppy handling of the Word of Truth, but it's ethically duplicitous. "But," you might say, "didn't the Emergent start to use the protocol selectively for his own advantage, too, since he registered his complaint publicly?" Yes, you're right. Ungodly folks do ungodly and dishonest things. We ought not. Winning points in an argument isn't all there is in life. Obeying and loving God is. Let's win our enemies without a word, if need be. Righteous purposes aren't served by sinful means. We lose credibility when we lie and rightly so.
Plagiarism shouldn't be an issue in our circles. It's theft of the work and ideas of another without proper attribution or payment. I'm not the only one to whom this has happened, but I know my own story and it's a shocker.
I had been corresponding with a writer on one the really huge ODMs. He's a guy who really puts everything into his work. I won't name him because I don't want to do the cause of Christ harm. He read some of my stuff on an old blog that's still up, but hasn't been updated for a year now. We even collaborated on one article. The last article I posted there said this:
Not long ago, I wrote an article accusing the Emergent of being full of pot heads. I admitted I had no evidence other than the way they acted, talked, and thought (if you can call what they do in their heads "thought"). It was a really spooky thing to do, making an accusation like that without any real evidence other than the sense I got from their manners. So I made sure to make it clear that I was working on a strong impression, not evidence.
BUT........just about two days ago, I was gathering information for a friend. He wanted to know what the Emergent was. So I told him that I would get some Emergent websites listed for him and some sites that were anti-Emergent so he could know just what it is I am talking about all the time infiltrating the church. Among the Emergent sites I listed was theooze.com. When I went over there to cut and paste the url onto the email to my friend, I found this article by Gordon Duncan. He was complaining about what ought to be done with all the potheads he knew, including a lot in the "church."
Yes, totally by chance I found an obscure, off-the-front-page web article confirming a long held suspicion. It was a one-in-a-thousand chance that I got there. Yet, within a couple days the same story (in different words) citing the same web article I found was on my friend's web site. The chances of this being a coincidence were astronomical, especially since he'd been reading my site at the time. When I asked for a simple acknowledgement for doing the leg work to uncover quite a coup against the Emergents my friend no longer was my friend.
He was just hot.
Could this have been an honest mistake brought about by accident? Yes. But if that was so, why not be gracious? Why the hostility? I'll let you decide.
TIES THAT BLIND--He ain't guilty. He's my brother.
The great thing that ODMing does is to name false teachers and calling the body to refuse them. But if those calling for separation from falsehood won't separate themselves...we HAVE A PROBLEM.
ODMing is lonely for many of us and without reward. Often the only real moral support we get is from friends we meet on the web. And losing a friend hurts. You know that, don't you? The kind of isolation this sort of soldiering brings makes that hurt even harder. But there comes a time...
More than once I've confronted over the phone or in email an ODMer with news that someone he is supporting has strayed. Almost every time, I get arguments that can only be explained by purposeful ignorance. We can't expect folks to listen when we ask for a purity from them that we won't practice ourselves.
Not long ago Tim Challies voiced approval for an audio version of the New Testament portion of the TNIV. For those of you who may not know, the TNIV is a gender-altered Bible version. Gender-altered versions are versions which are purposely altered to make certain groups happy. They do so by changing masculine references to neuter or feminine. Those who like this practice of changing what God said call it being gender neutral. (Which begs for the question, "Just what is so neutral about erasing one gender and inserting another?") Challies is promoted by Phil Johnson on Team Pyro. As many of you know this crew is wildly popular, so the isolation excuse certainly doesn't apply. There IS no excuse for this.
The audio is called The Bible Experience. Challies said this about it:
I did not listen to the entire series of CDs (there are nineteen of them for the New Testament) but the portions I did listen to, primarily from the gospels, were really quite well done. This product is certainly different, but I can see nothing inherently wrong with it! (2)
Despite the obvious approval Challies gave the piece, when I and others asked him why he puffed a sinful attempt to change what God has said in Scripture, he said this in the comment thread:
I didn’t say that I would recommend using this for devotional or church purposes. (2)
What? Yes, he said that. If you think I'm lying go back through the provided links. He says one thing and then says he didn't say it. Does he think we're stupid? He must. Personally I didn't fall for it. Did you?
I told you that story in order to tell you another story. And I'll tell you that story in order to help you understand just how pervasive this sort of friends-covering-up-for-friends is in SOME (the SOME part is important here) Christian and ODM websites.
Here's the second story--I'll be brief: When I saw that Team Pyro was shilling for Challies, I warned Phil Johnson, Frank Turk, and company of the sinful things Challies was doing. Instead of thanking me and checking it out to make sure I wasn't lying, they immediately gave me the you're-too-stupid-to-live treatment. I was called a fundie, told I don't know the languages--a wrong assumption on their part stated as fact (that's called lying)--and told I was rude. Yet, all I asked is why it's okay to purposely change what God has said and report it as true. I asked it over and over again. I was told I was stupid. I was told they couldn't answer until they got an example. (Yeah, they said that.) I was told I was rude. I was told I should shut up about it. I just was told everything but an answer to a very simple question.
Let me tell you just how hard these guys squirmed to defend their friend. I cited the passage from Deut. 18 in which we are told that a prophet who says God said something He didn't should die. In answer, Frank Turk said, "Deu 18 is talking about false prophecy -- not about (for example) translating the Bible from Hebrew to English, or into any language." In other words, changing what God said is okay as long as you're not a prophet. In fact I asked him if that's what he meant and he wouldn't answer. (3)
Of course not. He was caught just like Johnson was caught. He couldn't answer the question without admitting he was making things up as fast as he could just to win an argument. Johnson couldn't answer the first question without admitting his friend was sinning.
And we surely can't have THAT now, can we?
Here's the point of those two stories: One of the great sins in the ODM world is a simple lack of purity. It's true that Team Pyro and the Challies site aren't ODMs per se, but Pyro is among those sites who call themselves Christian and who correct others and call those others to purity.
Yet, they remain impure and hope you don't notice. This sort of blind-eye-turning doesn't pay. Where is Challies now? Still sliding. He's now toying with new age stuff. (4)
Oh...and yeah...he's still on Phil Johnson's blogroll, too.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
(1)http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1341&more=1&c=1
(2)http://www.challies.com/archives/churchmerch/churchmerch-the-2.php
(3)http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/02/sectarianism-and-separation.html
(4)http://surphside.blogspot.com/search?q=Challies
COMING IN PART II OF THE SECRET SINS OF THE ODMs
STARTING WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD.
There is a sin of sins currently in the ODM community and it isn't being addressed.
DROPPING NAMES AND CLAIMING A BROTHERHOOD THAT ISN'T THERE.
Some ODMers use the names of Reformation fathers and famous preachers who wouldn't have anything to do with them because of the sin in their lives. That's lying.
THE CHALLENGE AHEAD OF US.
Now what?
Online discernment ministries (ODMs) are indispensable because the brick and mortar churches refuse to carry out the biblical command to warn the flock of wolves and informally (but forcefully) forbid anyone in their midst to do so, as well. Frustrated but resolute, these Christians do what they can to research and expose religious figures involved in deception. One look at my blogroll here at Al Tosap will attest to the fact that I make constant use of them to keep myself informed. The men and women who do this sort of thing are precious soldiers of Christ. We ought to appreciate them. We ought to support them.
They support us.
However, over the last two years, I've come to see that we in the ODM arena aren't without spiritual peril. Nor do I, for a moment, believe that everyone in the ODM community is actually regenerate. I'd like your patience as I list and explain four sins rampant in the ODM world that are hidden, but deadly.
AN OFFLINE EXAMPLE
Now, I'm sure that some of you three who read that last paragraph are thinking something like, "Phil sure is off the deep end. He's calling ODMers unsaved." Well, not really. Only that there's no assurance that all are saved and plenty of evidence from Scripture that within any group of Christians are some wolves. (C'mon, now. If you're an ODMer or if you read ODMs, you major in this stuff.)
I'm sure that many of you are aware of the sad story of Ravi Zacharias. For years I listened to RZ every Sunday evening at 7PM. He was a great Christian apologist. Today he's gone. He's pushing the mysticism against which he once defended the faith. (1) I remind you of this sad, sad saga because it still hurts and because it shows us that...
...anyone can be a wolf.
ETHICS ETHICS ETHICS
Calling others to intellectual honesty with regard to the Bible is an awesome calling, but some ODMs are ethically loosy-goosy in their own right. Plagiarism and sloppy Bible handling are too common. One example of ODMers not doing their Scriptural homework is the wishy-washy way Matthew 18 is treated. The Matthew 18 protocol is misapplied or selectively applied. A ploy of the Emergents is to call into question the reproof of an ODM on the basis that Matthew 18 requires the reprover to first confront anyone named as a false teacher privately before going public with criticism. Matthew 18 doesn't teach this, but I've more than once seen ODMers respond in kind, demanding that the Emergent apologize for their challenge of the ODM on the same basis.
No matter how the ODMer understands Matthew 18, he ought never require of the Emergent what he doesn't also practice. Not only is this sloppy handling of the Word of Truth, but it's ethically duplicitous. "But," you might say, "didn't the Emergent start to use the protocol selectively for his own advantage, too, since he registered his complaint publicly?" Yes, you're right. Ungodly folks do ungodly and dishonest things. We ought not. Winning points in an argument isn't all there is in life. Obeying and loving God is. Let's win our enemies without a word, if need be. Righteous purposes aren't served by sinful means. We lose credibility when we lie and rightly so.
Plagiarism shouldn't be an issue in our circles. It's theft of the work and ideas of another without proper attribution or payment. I'm not the only one to whom this has happened, but I know my own story and it's a shocker.
I had been corresponding with a writer on one the really huge ODMs. He's a guy who really puts everything into his work. I won't name him because I don't want to do the cause of Christ harm. He read some of my stuff on an old blog that's still up, but hasn't been updated for a year now. We even collaborated on one article. The last article I posted there said this:
Not long ago, I wrote an article accusing the Emergent of being full of pot heads. I admitted I had no evidence other than the way they acted, talked, and thought (if you can call what they do in their heads "thought"). It was a really spooky thing to do, making an accusation like that without any real evidence other than the sense I got from their manners. So I made sure to make it clear that I was working on a strong impression, not evidence.
BUT........just about two days ago, I was gathering information for a friend. He wanted to know what the Emergent was. So I told him that I would get some Emergent websites listed for him and some sites that were anti-Emergent so he could know just what it is I am talking about all the time infiltrating the church. Among the Emergent sites I listed was theooze.com. When I went over there to cut and paste the url onto the email to my friend, I found this article by Gordon Duncan. He was complaining about what ought to be done with all the potheads he knew, including a lot in the "church."
Yes, totally by chance I found an obscure, off-the-front-page web article confirming a long held suspicion. It was a one-in-a-thousand chance that I got there. Yet, within a couple days the same story (in different words) citing the same web article I found was on my friend's web site. The chances of this being a coincidence were astronomical, especially since he'd been reading my site at the time. When I asked for a simple acknowledgement for doing the leg work to uncover quite a coup against the Emergents my friend no longer was my friend.
He was just hot.
Could this have been an honest mistake brought about by accident? Yes. But if that was so, why not be gracious? Why the hostility? I'll let you decide.
TIES THAT BLIND--He ain't guilty. He's my brother.
The great thing that ODMing does is to name false teachers and calling the body to refuse them. But if those calling for separation from falsehood won't separate themselves...we HAVE A PROBLEM.
ODMing is lonely for many of us and without reward. Often the only real moral support we get is from friends we meet on the web. And losing a friend hurts. You know that, don't you? The kind of isolation this sort of soldiering brings makes that hurt even harder. But there comes a time...
More than once I've confronted over the phone or in email an ODMer with news that someone he is supporting has strayed. Almost every time, I get arguments that can only be explained by purposeful ignorance. We can't expect folks to listen when we ask for a purity from them that we won't practice ourselves.
Not long ago Tim Challies voiced approval for an audio version of the New Testament portion of the TNIV. For those of you who may not know, the TNIV is a gender-altered Bible version. Gender-altered versions are versions which are purposely altered to make certain groups happy. They do so by changing masculine references to neuter or feminine. Those who like this practice of changing what God said call it being gender neutral. (Which begs for the question, "Just what is so neutral about erasing one gender and inserting another?") Challies is promoted by Phil Johnson on Team Pyro. As many of you know this crew is wildly popular, so the isolation excuse certainly doesn't apply. There IS no excuse for this.
The audio is called The Bible Experience. Challies said this about it:
I did not listen to the entire series of CDs (there are nineteen of them for the New Testament) but the portions I did listen to, primarily from the gospels, were really quite well done. This product is certainly different, but I can see nothing inherently wrong with it! (2)
Despite the obvious approval Challies gave the piece, when I and others asked him why he puffed a sinful attempt to change what God has said in Scripture, he said this in the comment thread:
I didn’t say that I would recommend using this for devotional or church purposes. (2)
What? Yes, he said that. If you think I'm lying go back through the provided links. He says one thing and then says he didn't say it. Does he think we're stupid? He must. Personally I didn't fall for it. Did you?
I told you that story in order to tell you another story. And I'll tell you that story in order to help you understand just how pervasive this sort of friends-covering-up-for-friends is in SOME (the SOME part is important here) Christian and ODM websites.
Here's the second story--I'll be brief: When I saw that Team Pyro was shilling for Challies, I warned Phil Johnson, Frank Turk, and company of the sinful things Challies was doing. Instead of thanking me and checking it out to make sure I wasn't lying, they immediately gave me the you're-too-stupid-to-live treatment. I was called a fundie, told I don't know the languages--a wrong assumption on their part stated as fact (that's called lying)--and told I was rude. Yet, all I asked is why it's okay to purposely change what God has said and report it as true. I asked it over and over again. I was told I was stupid. I was told they couldn't answer until they got an example. (Yeah, they said that.) I was told I was rude. I was told I should shut up about it. I just was told everything but an answer to a very simple question.
Let me tell you just how hard these guys squirmed to defend their friend. I cited the passage from Deut. 18 in which we are told that a prophet who says God said something He didn't should die. In answer, Frank Turk said, "Deu 18 is talking about false prophecy -- not about (for example) translating the Bible from Hebrew to English, or into any language." In other words, changing what God said is okay as long as you're not a prophet. In fact I asked him if that's what he meant and he wouldn't answer. (3)
Of course not. He was caught just like Johnson was caught. He couldn't answer the question without admitting he was making things up as fast as he could just to win an argument. Johnson couldn't answer the first question without admitting his friend was sinning.
And we surely can't have THAT now, can we?
Here's the point of those two stories: One of the great sins in the ODM world is a simple lack of purity. It's true that Team Pyro and the Challies site aren't ODMs per se, but Pyro is among those sites who call themselves Christian and who correct others and call those others to purity.
Yet, they remain impure and hope you don't notice. This sort of blind-eye-turning doesn't pay. Where is Challies now? Still sliding. He's now toying with new age stuff. (4)
Oh...and yeah...he's still on Phil Johnson's blogroll, too.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
(1)http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1341&more=1&c=1
(2)http://www.challies.com/archives/churchmerch/churchmerch-the-2.php
(3)http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/02/sectarianism-and-separation.html
(4)http://surphside.blogspot.com/search?q=Challies
COMING IN PART II OF THE SECRET SINS OF THE ODMs
STARTING WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD.
There is a sin of sins currently in the ODM community and it isn't being addressed.
DROPPING NAMES AND CLAIMING A BROTHERHOOD THAT ISN'T THERE.
Some ODMers use the names of Reformation fathers and famous preachers who wouldn't have anything to do with them because of the sin in their lives. That's lying.
THE CHALLENGE AHEAD OF US.
Now what?
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14 comments:
Phil,
This is why I call you my Brother and my friend!
One thing about some ODMS is their lack of humility and accountability as you pointed out with that one ODM (in a coming article I WILL name his name. You never see them apologize for lying or give any credit to others (unless they're in the same club)for doing the legwork. Not very nice is it?
Challies has slid and I'm glad you had the courage to point that out as well. When I see his blog and my blog on someones "roll" I simply cringe....
Looking forward to part 2 Brother!
PS: I LOVE the tennis player but his forehand sucks:-)
Phil
And I thought you loved me for my natural good looks.
I've been suspicious of Tim Challies for some time now. I don't read much of his blog, but I often find myself wondering if he doesn't belong in the Emergent camp. His praise of Foster answers that question on my mind. Challies is certainly into mixing mammon with the things of God. Mammon is a false basis for ministry.
I'm sadden to hear that the Pyro guys are so duplicitous.
Keep up the good work, Brother!
I have seen this disturbing two-faced standards here and there, and it is grievous.
May the Lord stregthen us to take a stand for what is right always.
Keep sounding the alarm bells.
REB,
Thanks for the encouragement. You left two comments. I hit "publish" on both, but only one published. The other disappeared. I didn't censor you. Your point was good.
Sorry.
I you wisht send it again, I'll be more careful.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Yomi,
I don't know if you caught what I said over at Phil N.'s blog, but I read your article on tithing. It was really good.
Have you written anything on your views on the fourth commandment and Sabboth-keeping for Christians.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Speaking of "isolation", Phil, your little blog here is a nice place for you to vent your, um, concerns about all of us evil soul-slayers, but I wonder: what exactly are you talking about?
You have a huge concern here with "changing the words of God" -- one I think I would share with you. But what do you mean when you say that?
You have said, unequivocally, that the TNIV is an example of this because of its translation philosophy of gender neutrality -- a philosophical choice I have argued against elsewhere, but so be it: the TNIV uses a gender-neutral translation for words like "men" and pronouns like "he" when the usage is (in the translators' view) ambiguous -- when these words refer to "anyone" and not a determined antecedent with a particular gender.
I think that's a bad idea because the translators' view will always be biased one way or the other -- and we'd be better off letting the text speak to the reader directly rather than filtering the text to make it "easier" for the reader.
But that said, we have the TNIV, and from the TNIV we have the Bible Experience -- hours of dramatic readings from the Bible. In your view, the Bible Experience is worthless -- worse than worthless because it "changes God's words".
Phil: in the two years that elapsed since you went on about this at TeamPyro, you have yet to make it clear what you mean by that. Here's what I mean:
KJV: [Deu 6:1] Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it.
NIV: These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.
NASB: Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it.
Now, which of these translations "changed God's words", Phil? Only the NIV? Or did the NIV change them, and the NASB change them again? Or have they all changed God's words since none of these passages are the original Hebrew -- all of them are different, word for word from what God actually said to Moses since God did not speak English to Moses?
What does "changed the words" mean, Phil? Because once you define that phrase in a way which is more than a raw accusation, you're going to find that what the TNIV did isn't blasphemy -- not for the reasons you may be trying to spin out here, anyway.
And at that point, you have to see the TNIV for what it is: a piece of devotional literature.
Isn't it possible, Phil, that in some sense those who spun out the TNIV did so with the intention of bringing the word of God to people, in the same way the translators of the NASB have done their work -- the difference being that these two works come from different liguistic philosophies?
God's word is not as fragile as you make it out to be, my friend; and Deu 18 can't be interpreted as broadly as you would make it out, or else the Apostles themselves who relied heavily on the LXX for their reading of the OT would be the kinds of apostates you describe here who use a version which "changed God's words".
You may police the world as you see fit. My suggestion to you is that you police it at least from some plcae you can define accurately. It will make your complaints at least credible if not actually useful.
Frank,
Good evening. How much time do you spend looking yourself up? Do you use google? Yahoo?
Oh, Vanity, huh?
You need to read the rules of the blog. Don't insult just because you're mad. Insults are fine, if factual. Not so when you're just getting even. It's a form of lying. And never lie outright again or I'll permanently ban you.
You have lied about objective facts, including what I've said and you know that.
I let your comment on because it's important for some to see what the issues are.
I'm going to bed, but there will be a full answer on the morrow. This will be enjoyable.
In fact, I'll do an entire post about it soon on another blog. You can find it. Just google yourself again.
Phil Perkins.
Got the link via e-mail, Phil -- I work for a living and can't spend 23 hours a day "googling myself".
I think it's amusing that you don't abide by your own blog rules when engaging other people.
You go ahead and have the last word, dude. I am sure your reader will enjoy it -- and Christ will hold you accountable for all you idle words.
Frank,
Let me apologize for saying "This will be enjoyable. That was just to stick you. It had no foundation in facts having to do with the subjects at hand.
Phil Perkins.
Frank Turk,
This is the answer I promised last night. And I see you, who do no monitoring, have left a raft of other comments. I'll take them one at a time, and I may shorten or combine for easy, quick reading, redacting the superfluous.
First of all, you've said quite a bit here. However, you've not said a number of things that you should have.
1. You still haven't answered clarified your Deuteronomy 18 comment. You seem to think purposely changing what God has said is okay if one isn't a prophet. That is the simple sense of your words. If this is a misstatement or misunderstanding, this is a good chance to clarify.
It's not fair to ask that I answer you when you won't show me the same courtesy.
2. The last time we spoke I was very polite to you and your buds. On the other hand some of you accused me of not knowing the languages. The point was made that this renders me unfit to speak of translation issues. It wasn't asked as a question. And it wasn't presented as a speculation. It was stated as fact. That's lying.
You've not apologized for that since you now know better. Why not?
3. You haven't yet told us if you know the languages. Well?
If not knowing the languages precludes me from commenting on translational issues, you ought to live by the same standard.
4. You haven't at all dealt with the real subject: your association with a man who now shills for folks who teach mystical practices.
Why not? How do you square that with Deuteronomy 13? Let's hear it.
Now, for the sake of others, I'll answer you.
You said, "...we have the TNIV, and from the TNIV we have the Bible Experience -- hours of dramatic readings from the Bible."
ANSWER: But what you didn't say is there are lots of audio recordings. You can get Charleston Heston reading it if you want drama. Implying that The Bible Experience is all that's available is a lie. (I'll bet you've listened to some others, haven't you?)
You said, "You have said, unequivocally, that the TNIV is an example of this because of its translation philosophy of gender neutrality."
ANSWER: No, I haven't. Gender neutrality isn't a factor. Gender bias is. Reread.
You asked, "What does 'changed the words' mean, Phil?"
ANSWER: Do you need a definition of all three of those terms or just one or two?
You lied and claimed I said something I never have, never will, and is the opposit of what I believe altogether. You said, "God's word is not as fragile as you make it out to be..."
Frank, this is what I mean about banning you. In almost every sentence you write you lie another lie or try to insinuate things that just aren't so.
You have brought up Deuteronomy 6:1and its treatment by the NASB, the KJV, and the NIV. Where is the relevance? There is a gender reference in the passage. Do you know what it is?
Speaking of the TNIV and the NASB you said, "...the difference being that these two works come from different liguistic philosophies...)
ANSWER: Actually, the difference is marketing strategy and I have documented that under the category of Zondervan's follies. But then, that history isn't new to you is it?
Which brings up another topic you've avoided. You know of some of Zondervan's history, I'm sure. And you know about the history of the TNIV, its origins, and Zondervan's goals for the TNIV. I notice you aren't saying anything about that.
Nor are you saying anything about Zondervan's push for particular heresies these past years, including female preachers--a cause which needs gender references changed in the Bible.
Will you be man enough to tell the readers why or do I have to? Here's you chancer to fess up.
While you're deciding whether or not you're going to come clean about that, here's one among many some verses for you to explain: Philippians 1:12 changes "brothers" to "brothers and sisters". Explain this by the vocabulary. Then explain why no translators before the feminist movement ever did this.
Tell the truth, Frank.
Phil Perkins.
Frank,
Then you're one of those with help.
AND you're here, aren't you?
Phil.
Well, this has been an interesting hour, reading these current posts and comments, and I'm happy to have tracked you down from "Pulpit Pimps"
You said: (Pyro)immediately gave me the you're-too-stupid-to-live treatment.
Ha! Been there, done that. They should peddle a tee shirt for that.
And, you can tell 'em you now have 2 readers....
Yes, Ed,
I don't even think those clowns at Pyro are even believers. Their lives don't show it either in conduct or concern for purity. I could be wrong, but that is what it seems to me.
Pray for my holiness,
Phil Perkins.
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