Boydmiller is a fellow I met on another comment line and he thinks we ought not give pastors, missionaries, evangelists anything to live on. In stead, they should "work with their hands" like everyone else.
No, wait. That statement's too embarassing because of a little thing called THE BIBLE. So now it's okay in Boydworld to give them something. Yes, we now have express permission from Boyd to give them "food and drink". Thanks, Boyd.
But, money is still bad.
So I asked if I should stop sending money to missions and start sending sandwiches and Koolaid.
I await his answer.
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Following The Good Shepherd Into Winter
3 months ago
5 comments:
Good morning Mr. Perkins
It has occurred to me that maybe our misunderstanding or disagreement on this topic is more about what a servant is. A minister or missionary is not serving me or working for me but God. The blanket statement that I don't think they should be supported is just as false as saying that you think they should. I doubt that you think Copeland should be supported or Hinn, so let's start over.
1. Ministry or missionary work is something every believing christian should do. Let separate ministry from the business of church.
2. I'm very uncomfortable with sending money to an unknown person behind a computer. I have no way to measure their fruit or the way they conduct themselves. However I will offer Godly hospitality to any man.
3. Many people have bought into the notion that by giving money to some organization they can hire someone to do the unpleasent duty of holding the hand of that sick and suffering person. Occupational ministry has taken the same theory and walked down the same path.
4. You have mentioned the difference between culture in Jesus time compaired to today and that is certainly true and Paul could have made the arguement that if only he had a chariot and good horses he could reach alot more people for Christ.
5. We all must fight against the theory that what the Holy Spirit leads us to do, should then become doctrine for everyone else. The Holy Spirit send Elijah to a widow woman. Elijah didn't then proclaim, "Everyone find a widow".
6. We are not talking to the unchurched but rather the overchurched. I have seen in my life time(I am your elder) the way the occupation of ministry has perverted the gospel.
I do enjoy your site, however I don't feel the need to send you any money(I'm not implying you ask for money). I have no problem in calling you a brother even if God has lead us down different paths to deal with different issues.
Boydmiller
Boydmiller,
I'm really tired and my studies have suffered from both working nights and blogging a lot this last few days.
SOOOO, I'll have to try to answer you better tomorrow or the next day. It may take several days with several answers.
Until then, I will answer you on this issue:
You said, "I have no problem in calling you a brother even if God has lead us down different paths to deal with different issues."
However, God said to Moses, "One Law shall be to the full citizen and to the sojourner who sojourns among you." (My translation of Ex. 12:49.)
In Christ,
Phil Perkins. PS--Don't read anything into the sojourner-citizen thing. I wasn't insinuating anything. This is just a passage I just read this afternoon in the course of my normal reading. It seems to be parallel to the NC teaching of spiritual equality between Jews and Greeks, men and women. God bless.
Boydmiller,
I'd like to speak to you very gently here as I have hammered very hard previously.
Please, I beg you to stop and be frank with yourself. We are now on the third incarnation of your position. You started out by saying the clergy ought to "work with their hands" like everyone else. I've reminded you of this, but you've ignored it as if it's not true, even denying it.
But you did it.
Then you said it's okay to give food and drink.
Now you insinuate it's okay for me to give money, but God has given you special revelation contradicting the revelation He has given me. (This idea that He has given me special revelation on this or any other issue isn't mine, but purely yours.)
Take a long look at this. As your position changed you never ackowledged the changes. In fact, you have denied the changes despite the fact that you've put them in writing over just a few days. Publicly.
How do you explain that?
I understand that one may do this sort of thing out of haste and hasty thinking. However, it's dishonest once you've had the opportunity to stop and consider it, if you continue.
Then, Boyd, there is another thing to explain to yourself. You have stopped arguing rationally with biblical facts and begun insinuating things that I've never said. Your first paragraphs here suggests that I would have you support people you don't know . Yet you've admitted that you've read my work. Thus, you know this is a not true. Everything I write drips with the urgent call to Bereanism.
How do you explain that? You don't have to answer that to me, but you do have to answer it.
To God.
You are right on many things in this regard. Many churchees send a pittance to missions, and NEVER actually say the gospel to their neighbor. Yet, your answer is to then stop supporting missionaries.
Is not the biblical answer to do the work of a missionary here, while supporting God's work abroad as well, rather than stopping both?
I know you have an IQ. That being so, you can think better than this.
AND many pulpit pimps (a phrase borrowed from Melvin Jones at a website he calls Pulpit Pimps--a website you'd enjoy, Boyd and it's on my blog roll) just steal from the sheep. And they steal and they steal and they steal.
However, Boyd, we are still responsible for OUR actions. And Benny Hinn's theft from the sheep doesn't excuse MY sin.
Or yours.
You have a hatred for some in the ministry. Don't allow that hatred to make you sin along with them.
They're not worth your soul.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Mr. Perkins
When I say "let them work with their hands" I am talking about occupational ministry not that of a servant. I thought I made that distinction. I have supported non-job creating works(distribution of bibles) and have supported family members in the foreign mission field.
In Luke 10 when Jesus send the seventy he told them to take no money bag or other possessions and when they entered a house and found peace, to eat what was set before them which was their wages. The act of offering hospitality was an acceptance and desire to hear them out. If they were rejected they were to wipe the dust from their feet. This is Godly hospitality, which is one of the requirements for an overseer in the church(1Tim.3) The act of sharing food and drink is found throughout the NT and in Holy Communion and a matter of judgement in Matt.25:37.
These scriptures are flimsy at the most to imply the creation of paid clergy. One of the requirements in 1Tim.3 for an overseer was that he have a good testimony outside the church or in the community at large. I don't know of anyone who is respected in my community who cannot support and provide for their family and all beggars would be disqualified.
As to the matter of extra revelation, you misunderstand. If the Holy Spirit has lead you to support a minister or missionary, then obey God. He has lead me to feed the poor.
The obligation for the retired occupational minister should fall on those who have hired him. I have the same compassion for the stuggling millworker, or laid off construction worker.
The silence in the scripture concerning the creation of occupational ministry is deafing, yet the requirement to share food and drink(which you have ridiculed) is very plain.
God Bless,
Boydmiller
Boydmiller,
You've done a lot of lying and I've been very nice about it. Yet you continue to lie.
Here is a list of lies in your last comment:
1.) "When I say 'let them work with their hands' I am talking about occupational ministry not that of a servant. I thought I made that distinction."
You lied here about what you actually wrote. Here is what you really wrote: "then let them work with their hands the same as the wolves they expose." You're thinking isn't very clear here, either, as it is a simple fact that most of the wolves, if not all, get paid for their false ministries.
2.) You said, "I have supported non-job creating works(distribution of bibles) and have supported family members in the foreign mission field."
This is a lie in that you are now trying to back track and act as if you believe that it's okay for those in service of the gospel to accept money. The truth is that you have repeatedly forbidden it based, you claim, on Scripture. You tried to cover this nonsense over in your last comment, too, when you implied that God would lead you to forbid giving money for you, but allow it for me. Is God double-minded?
3.) You said, "In Luke 10 when Jesus send the seventy he told them to take no money bag or other possessions and when they entered a house and found peace, to eat what was set before them which was their wages."
You lied. It doesn't say the food is their wages. It actually says this: "And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages." They were free to take what was given because they were actually worthy of pay, not just a meal or two. The Greek word for "wages" there is "misthos". It means "pay" and it can be money or goods of any kind. Since they were worthy of pay, they were allowed to take what was given.
Why did you lie about what God said, Boyd?
4.) You said, "In Luke 10 when Jesus send the seventy he told them to take no money bag or other possessions..."
You lied about this passage. It actually says, "Carry no purse, no bag, no shoes; and greet no one on the way." You have repeatedly used the argument that since they were to take no "bag" they were to receive no money. This is a lie and you know it. They were also to "greet no one on the way". Does this mean that they weren't to say "hi"? Are ministers obligated to be rude? And they were to take no shoes. Does this mean they were to go barefoot after their shoes wore out because they were only allowed to accept food and drink?
You have you lied about what God said in this passage, Boyd.
5.) You said, "The act of sharing food and drink is found throughout the NT and in Holy Communion and a matter of judgement in Matt.25:37." And you said, "...the requirement to share food and drink(which you have ridiculed) is very plain."
You lied about me. I have never ridiculed the sharing of food and drink or any other thing. Rather, I have ridiculed you for stealing from the servants of God. You are the stingy one, not I.
Why did you lie about what I said, Boyd?
6.) You said, "I don't know of anyone who is respected in my community who cannot support and provide for their family and all beggars would be disqualified."
This is alie and you know it,Boyd. You also don't know of anyone in the ministry that fits that discription. Everyone in the ministry could do something else if all they wanted was money. Did you not realize that you just insulted Paul the apostle because he accepted money? Was Paul unable to support himself and family? You are lying, Boyd.
7.)You called all those who take money for ministry "beggars".
You have lied in several ways here, but I will only mention one. You have cry-babied that I called you names. You lied about that, but here is my main point:
If name calling is bad, why do you do it to others, O Hypocrit?
There, Now you can say it.
8.) You said, "I have supported non-job creating works(distribution of bibles) and have supported family members in the foreign mission field." Ah, but you don't anymore, do you? Did you think we would forget that you said you don't believe it's right for them to accept money?
Why do you lie about what you wrote publicly just a day or two ago? Whey do you pretend to be generous when you're not? Do you think that most of your readers are so stupid? You remember what you wrote, don't you? Why don't you think the rest of us do?
9.) You said you're not stealing from anyone. You wrote this lie earlier, but it deserves an answer.
I said you were stealing from these men and their families. I was wrong. According to Paul the apostle, you are not only stealing from them, but you are stealing from other folks who have to make up for your sin. II Cor. 11:8 says,"I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia, they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so."
"Robbed" is the Greek word "sulao", meaning to steal or plunder. In order to keep the Boydmillers in Corinth from cry-babying about having to support Paul, others had to do what you, Boyd, refuse to do.
Proud of yourself?
The word for "wages" there is "opsonion" meaning provisions or money. And don't tell me the folks in Philippi sent pot roasts. They had to send money for at least some of it. They didn't have the interstate system, you know.
So not only did Paul receive money, but he used the term "steal" to apply to what he had to do to keep folks like you from crying their little eyes out. So, yes, you're stealing.
10.) You said, "The obligation for the retired occupational minister should fall on those who have hired him."
This is a lie. The Scripture says,
"Romans 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem."
Oh, they must have made sure to exclude any retired ministers, huh, Boyd?
And what if the those who hired a retired minister fail in their obligation? You still have a brother in need. Will you tell him, "Be warmed and be filled and write to your old missions board?"
This is so stupid as to richly deserve all the ridicule one can heap upon it.
Answer this Boyd: If it's the obligation of the church or mission board who hired the retired pastor or missionary in the first place, who supports the church or missions board so they can send money to their retirees?
You have no excuse, and I find you efforts toward the obfusacation of the obvious both juvenile and repulsive.
11.) You impLIEd earlier that we don't have to pay the clergy because it was only in the Old Covenant.
This is a lie. The first tithe was from Abraham to Melchizedek. He tithed from everything he had. (That would include money, I suppose.) And this precedes the OC, Boyd.
Well, that's eleven, and I didn't even get into many of the lies you previously told, Boyd. I was more gentle about them. I will, however, deal with one more lie. That is the lie of your silence.
You have lied repeatedly, misquoted Scripture and others, changed your position to pretend to still be right, and insulted even the apostles and prophets. (They took money.) You have advocated stealing from the servants of God. When confronted with these things, you refuse to be a man and say you were wrong even when you change your position.
In this you lie. You pretend you're righteous, when you are in deep sin. You pretend you are logically consistant, when you contradict earlier statements placed in writing and published.
Are you running for Congress?
Your lie of silence extends also to all the questions I have asked of you. You have never told us what to say to the families of the pastors you wish the rest of us to steal from.
Why not?
There's no excuse, Boyd.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
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