IF YOUR GOD IS SO LOVING NOBODY GETS HURT, NO MATTER WHAT THEY'VE DONE.....................SHE'S NOT HERE.


ROOLZ O' DA BLOG--Ya break 'em, ya git shot.
1. No cowards. State your first and last name. "Anonymous" aint your name.
2. No wimps.
3. No cussin'.
4. State no argument without reference to a biblical passage or passages and show a strong logical connection between your statement and the passages you cite.
5. Insults, sarcasm, name-calling, irony, derision, and humor at the expense of others aren't allowed unless they are biblical or logical, in which case they are WILDLY ENCOURAGED.
6. No aphronism.
7. Fear God, not man.

Friday, March 12, 2010

THE LOST DOCTRINE--Part VII The Lost Practice of Separation (continued again)

This the seventh in a series on the doctrine of holiness. Parts V, VI, VII, and VIII are about the lost practice of holiness, often called separation. This Part VII is the third installment concerning separation. Here is how it fits with the other three:

1. WE HAVE NO ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM OF EVIL. (The Lost Doctrine of the Ownership of God) Covered in Part V.

2. WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SINFULNESS OF OUR SIN. (The Lost Doctrine of Our Moral Filth and Our Spiritual Hopelessness) Covered in Part VI.

3. WE ARE NOT HOLY. (The Lost Doctrine of Personal Holiness)


LET'S CLEAR THIS UP RIGHT NOW.
I'll define three terms I'm going to start using to make this discussion readable. These are my words and my definitions that I use to keep my thinking straight:

abiblical--Not found in the Bible. Cars are abiblical, but not anti-biblical. That is to say they're neither forbidden nor required in Scripture.

antibiblical--A violation of clear Scripture. Theft is antibiblical. I am anticommunist. That is, I violate communist principles. Theft is antibiblical because it is opposed to biblical teachings. Antibiblical things may be things forbidden or the omission of things required, sins of commission and sins of omission.

unbiblical--Either antibiblical or abiblical. It's a catchall word that is used either of things not mentioned in Scripture or of things forbidden in Scripture.

If that seemed a bit obscure and off-subject, just be patient. You'll see.

WHAT PERSONAL HOLINESS AINT--SLIPPERY SLOPES OR JAGGED CLIFFS?
This weekend I went to the website of a Christian college/seminary and read their take on proper Christian living and just what is required of the students. There was a list intended as an answer to what "Christian separation" is. The list contained some biblical things and some unbiblical things. For instance, one of the somewhat biblical things was a dress code for the ladies. The Bible does command us to be modest. Just how one would apply that takes some thought and hard and fast rules will be hard to set. The list mentioned "excessive use of makeup" and a number of other things that could definitely be seen as reflective of biblical commands.

The slippery slope comes in when we make these unbiblical lists. If the list doesn't exist in Scripture, we ought to ignore it or oppose it. Why? Because the abiblical is often the segue to the antibiblical. What starts as a concern for righteousness and holiness becomes prideful.

Another definition: Personal holiness is the restoration of the image of God in each of us and the process starts with regeneration and continues through sanctification. Wow! That's different from our definition of holiness up to this point, huh? No, actually, it isn't. It's just saying the same thing a different way.

Going back to the beginning, what is the first verse in Scripture that speaks of the holiness of God? Genesis 1:1 divides all things into two categories, the created and the Creator. The dependent and the Independent. The caused and the Uncaused Cause. The needful and He to Whom "need" is a meaningless word. The profane and the Holy. The ordinary and the fabulously Different. The dependent and the Sustainer.

And why are we to be holy? Because God is. "Be holy for I am holy." And the first passage of Scripture that demonstrates the holiness of God's people is also in Genesis. All other life was simply spoken into being. Not so man. He was personally formed of the dirt by God. ("Adam" is the masculine form of "adamah" meaning dirt.) And then God breathed into him the breath of life. In 1:26 we read a very strange thing. After all else is created, God creates man, male and female. BUT, just like God's first appearance, man's introduction is a stark contrast to all else on earth. He is made in God's image and in verse 28 we read that not only does he have a unique personal essence, he is made to be sovereign over the earth. And why not? God is sovereign, too.

Finally, in 2:4 we read the recap of creation and this time it's more to the point of the order of creation, not the detail of creation. In just three verses, 4 through 6, all creation was recounted. Then in verse 7 God puts a special kind of life into only one creature. He breathed life into man. He did this for no other creature.

So what's the point of this revisit of the old Sunday School story of creation? We were created holy, set apart, different, unique, one-off. The point of the atonement is to wipe away sin and its affects. As regenerate people we have a reason--no--an impulsion to be holy. Those who don't aren't his people.

There are two ways to be wrong on holiness. The one common in churches today is the systematic replacement of holiness with something softer. A god who is love, not holiness, fits well. The preaching of right living is missing, unless you mean by "right living" living without offending anyone. (And that offends God, but oh well...) The gospel is offensive. It's offensive for the same reason showing someone at your work how to do something is offensive. The one receiving the corrective is aware that the message carries the implication of his own short-coming however large or small, his wrongness. The offense derives not from the correction, but from the black character of he who wishes not to learn, too proud to change.

Here's the harm in the soft approach: No one gets saved. Not even the ones in church. We don't hear repentance, so we don't think we need to repent. (Well...except that we need to repent of not loving ourselves enough.) In fact, we don't think we're wrong. Like the stubborn worker who can't correct his mistake, the sinner wants to ignore his sin. Unlike the stubborn worker who may use the wrong bolt, have a hard time with a word processor, or spill the paint, the sinner goes to hell forever. You can't replace hell with the right bolt. You can't wipe up hell before it dries. And once a man is in hell the delete button won't work.

NICE THEORY. SO WHAT'S YOUR EVIDENCE? Church.

And the people who go there.

Like me.

I'll give my own example. When I turned thirty-eight, I got more than a little introspective. At thirty-eight, a fellow is about half done. If the average American male lives to seventy-six, perhaps it's time to take stock. I had gone to seminary because I was sure I was just about the most profound guy I knew. I was raised in a Christian home, went to church every Sunday, married a Christian lady, and went off into the Christian sunset, complete with several of those sinner's prayers at different times in my youth under my belt to make sure the end of my ride was going to be heaven.

Trouble was it wasn't going to be and that was obvious when I looked at me. I won't bore you with the list of sins, but put the Bible on your wall and throw a dart. You won't miss. And they weren't occassional. They were a pattern of life. I knew I wasn't a Christian.

Now, I've said several times holiness isn't righteousness, but holiness includes righteousness. At the fall, we became unlike God in a particular way. Of all creatures we were the ones who were to be like Him. He was apart and separate from all creation. We were to be, too. Being created, we could never be as uniques as He, but we weren't like any other creature, either. We were to be God's face in creation. Not literally, of course. That can't happen when you're filthy.

Here is the crux: You are not in God's image the way you ought to be if you're not reborn into a new creature.

WHAT HOLINESS IS
Praying the prayer isn't it. It's a heart thing.

Want to do an experiment? Do what I did. I was hit up by some Mormon missionaries. So I did just what I shouldn't do. I went to their little indoctrination meetings. If they ever come to your door, they will ask you to meet with them for a few times, seven or so, I'm no longer sure. They will ask you to read the Book of Mormon, too. Well, I did that. It was really revealing.

THE MORMONS HAVE THE SINNER'S PRAYER, TOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Yep. Just like Modern Evangelicals, they want you to pray to Jesus and "accept" Him into your heart. They even put up a little picture of their jesus on the coffee table and boy is that fellow blonde! I think he's from Indiana or some such.

THE 99 DOLLAR QUESTION: Just what kind of saved do you get when you pray the seppgeezuz prayer anyway? Mormon saved or Baptist saved or Assembly of God saved....? Perhaps Russian Orthodox. I don't know who all has the magic seppgeezus incantation, but maybe it hits them all. Maybe that prayer is especially magical. Maybe it knows just exactly what kind of church you're in when you pray it, so that it can route you to just the right kind of salvation, Mormon, ME, JW (if the JW's have the sepgeezus prayer), Wesleyan, Lutheran...

My wife and I were doing our family Bible reading when I came across this passage from Deuteronomy: "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live." Chapter 30, verse 6. That's the Old Covenant, yet it sounds a lot like the New Covenant, huh? There is a whole lot of Bible study that has gone into this and I can't take the space here to list it all, but look up the New Covenant in Joel and Jeremiah. VERY interesting! No mention of the seppgeezus prayer Old Covenant or New. NONE!

The point is no matter what time in history, what culture or nation, God's people are God's people by a miraculous re-creation that restores His image in us. You will love God and His ways. You won't be able to help it. And He will complete that work in the day of Christ Jesus!

The second way to get holiness wrong is the list way. Remember the Bible college with the list? I mentioned slippery slopes and jagged cliffs. The makeup and dress thing is based on biblical principles. The problem is it isn't biblical and extrapolates from the Bible. It's abiblical, not antibiblical, but it's a first step to a slope that may lead to death. If a student follows the rules, but isn't changed in heart he may go to hell a very good guy. Over time, too, the list gets canonized.

In my neck of the woods, we have a group that have a history from as far back as Zwingli. They had a list. Now, to be part of that group, you must live communally, wear certain clothes only they make, groom yourself a certain way, etc. None of it is biblical. This is no longer a slope going from good intentions to hell. They have jumped right off the cliff by making up rules out of whole cloth.

Getting back to the Bible school, another item on their list isn't just abiblical. It's antibiblical. They forbid the consumption of things the bible expressly allows. The strict prohibition of certain foods and drink is a mark of evil in Scripture and expressly forbidden in Romans 14. Specifically, the issue is alcohol. Now, I know that some are convinced that alcohol is forbidden in Scripture. If you believe that, then you're obligated to obstain. Sin happens when one's opinion is that the Bible doesn't disallow it, but one disallows it regardless. That is sin. That's a jagged cliff.

Here are some reasons why this is so sinful: 1. First, it assumes that God hasn't told us all we need to know. The Scripture isn't sufficient. No matter what one's doctrinal statement says, if Scripture is sufficient, then additional revelation that is unbiblical is also antibiblical. If the Scripture is sufficient, why the extra rules? Did He forget? 2. Prohibiting things Jesus partook calls Jesus sinful. They would never say that, but it does. 3. It violates the principle of Romans 14. That which isn't stated clearly in Scripture is a matter of opinion. The only commandment on such things is that we are commanded not to command! "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."--Romans 14:5.

Finally, the list makers mistake the list for righteousness and righteousness for holiness. The Pharisees had quite a long list, much of which was unbiblical. And some was antibiblical. They thought they were holy by having list righteousness. And holiness is exactly what they were after. Their name "Pharisee" is from a root meaning to divide or break from. They tried for holiness, but just got a list. And their list made them separate from all their fellow men alright. The problem was they were still separate from God. And so they weren't all that different from other unregenerate men, just so religious that they disdained others. Their bodies were circumcised, but the hearts weren't.

God's holiness isn't a list He keeps. Remember what we learned about God's righteousness? It isn't God doing the right thing. God IS the right thing. His righteousness isn't list keeping. It's His heart--the way He is. Righteousness can be defined as like God in character. That's another way to be holy, by the way. Nearly all men try to be good. They just have different lists. Christians are different. They derive their legal righteousness in God's court from having Christ's righteousness, and their actual righteousness by being reborn as God's children with new hearts. Lists are just check lists to see. Lists don't make anyone righteous even if you have the right list.

Thus we see that outward righteousness isn't holiness at all and it doesn't save. It is only a sign of inward change and without the inward change the outward righteousness is sterile, dead, dry, and distasteful. It feels fake. Jesus didn't keep all the rules, but He is holy. Don't measure your holiness by what you do or don't do. If you have it, it won't even occur to you to measure it. You'll be too busy being in awe of and in love with God to think so self-centeredly. Scripture warns us to check and see that we are truly in Him, but it isn't a measure to see if we are okay. We know God and so we know we aren't.

As with God, so with us. If we aren't righteous from the inside out, we aren't righteous at all.

Which brings me to two conclusions. The first is the conclusion that leads to the next installment. It has baffled me how some churchies can hear of very sinful things in the assembly and not get upset. They don't seem sad and they don't seem mad. My conclusion? They might have the list, but they're not madly in love with God and His ways. Their hearts aren't reborn or they'd be grieved as God is.

The second conclusion this brings me to is that of this installment of The Lost Doctrine of Holiness.

NEXT INSTALLMENT:
4. WE FAIL TO SEPARATE FROM FALSE TEACHERS. (The Lost Doctrine of Corporate Holiness)This is the raging hypocrisy that is the lie that defined MEism from the beginning in the middle of last century. And, God willing, I'll deal with it in Part VIII.

Be holy because He is and pray that I am.
In the Holy One of Israel,
Phil Perkins.

11 comments:

Prodigal Knot said...

Phil, you are spot on with this stuff. Especially when you make it clear that this kind of teaching switched enangelicals from holy living to law keeping in the mid-19th century. I just finished reading a book about the Cane Ridge revivals of that period and it convinces me that Satan has had more to do with American evangelism than God has.

I really agree with your statement, "You are not in God's image the way you ought to be if you're not reborn into a new creature". This, should be obvious to anyone who is honest with themself, but many are not.

What I'd like to ask, though, is: how do you determine the point when a person is truly "born again"? I have become convinced that when Jesus said, "Unless a man is born of water and spirit he cannot entter the kingdom of heaven" in John 3:5, that is what He meant. As you've noted, there is no commandment to walk people to the altar, call them to the front, have them raise their hand "while every eye is closed" (wouldn't want to emabarass someone for confessing they need a savior), etc., etc.

No, the Great Commission was "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Making disciples implies that converts were to be sincere in their desire to learn of Christ and to follow Him. It is to be an informed decision made after honest introspection and sincere determination.

And baptism is a command we are advised to observe, in the words of our Lord, "to fulfill all righteousness". Too many quote Satan rather than God and say "Has God really said, You must be baptized?"

So, I wonder where you fall in this area?

Phil Perkins said...

PK, How are you? Love the way you think. And that's especially true in an age when most don't.

I can't get back to answering your comment right this moment, but I will later today or tomorrow.

Meanwhile, here's a quote you and Mr. Andrews will like. It's from George Eliot. She wasn't a believer, but she was right on this:

Given, a man with moderate intellect, a moral standard not higher than the average, some rhetorical affluence and great glibness of speech, what is the career in which, without the aid of birth or money, he may most easily attain power and reputation in English society? Where is that Goshen of mediocrity in which a smattering of science and learning will pass for profound instruction, where platitudes will be accepted as wisdom, bigoted narrowness as holy zeal, unctuous egoism as God-given piety? Let such a man become an evangelical preacher…

God bless,
Phil.

Phil Perkins said...

PK,
Okay, why not just answer now? I already wrote enoug other stuff to have answered you. Those other things will wait.

Where do I fall? All over myself. You can't tell 100% all the time. Otherwise the wolves couldn't hide and we wouldn't be told to examine ourselves.

Nonetheless, we're to look and examine ourselves and others who claim to be Christians. I Cor. 5, for instance, tell us to judge those within our Christian circle, but forbids judging the world.

Mt. 7 commands us to look for the fruit in the lives of preachers and ourselves. So, I believe, over time we can tell, but it may take some time.

One of the sure marks is our relationship to false teachers, once it is clear that's what they are and that's a constant theme in both Hebrew and Greek Bibles.

As to the exact point in time, I don't think you can tell that 100% either. I've seen conversions that were pin point. But let's look biblically at the "sinners prayer".

If we are dead in sins, unable to move toward God, and we are converted, and we pray the sinners prayer------don't we have to be regenerate in order to decide to follow God even if we have been erroneously convinced that to do so requires TSP? So, if you did the prayer thing and were truly converted, the prayer thing was added by a preacher who really didn't understand the gospel much. Repentance is endowed. It's a gift from God. The moment you are serious about following and loving God, you're a Christian, not after you pray a special prayer. For those of us who prayed the prayer and are real Christians, I know for a fact that we were saved before praying the prayer and the prayer had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Here's a story of a conversion that happened late one night in a dorm cafeteria: Big Canadian guy. Had questions. How could we know one way is right? Don't all opinions count? Isn't a bigoted thing to claim one's religion is right and all others wrong. He was raised in a Christian household and knew a lot of Bible, but had encountered postmodern thought.

Of course I can't say for sure, but I'd just about bet anything he was converted right there at the table. I told him the very same thing I'd told hundreds of folks. It's the simple logical contradiction inherent in postmodern thought (thought prevention, actually) in relation to reality. I simply pointed out in a couple sentences that there is only one truth in math, biology, history, geology, and any field of human knowledge. Therefore, it's simply unparsimonious to expect that one part of reality is the great exception.

This argument has never converted anyone at all and I've used it literally hundreds of times. Yet, the Spirit of God changed him there that night. He started laughing and said, "Yes, just like math!" Now he studied the Scripture and loves God, no longer perplexed, but very happy. Perhaps, I was just caught in the moment, but I could swear I saw the change in his face. And I didn't lead him in a prayer.

Now, how come (speaking my native language, Trailerpark, here) that argument saved no one, but saved him? Simple. His mind changed. That's repentance and it wasn't a magical apologetic. God granted it.
I and my argument were no more operative than Joshua and the marching Israelite band at Jericho. Marching didn't bring down Jericho and preaching doesn't save anyone. God does that in His sovereign timing and has us do our preaching as an act of obedience He instrumentalizes it for some reason too magnificent and far too odd for me to understand.

(to be continued because I'm over the verbal budget for Blogger comments...)

Phil Perkins said...

PK (...continued from previous comment)
In Scripture there were definite times of conversion. The conversions of Matthew, Moses' father-in-law, Paul, Zaccheus, and others all follow a simple pattern. They are commanded and they follow. That's all.

When did you stop serving self and start serving God? My Canadian friend had known for decades that the Scripture commanded him to believe certain things. He didn't until that night and it wasn't because of a good argument. At the conversion of Matthew, he was in his tax-collector duty. Jesus said to follow Him. He did.

At the conversion of Zaccheus, a little, conniving theif suddenly wanted only Jesus. Without prompting other than the presence of God, he decided to make restitution and Jesus declared him to be His, while the religious folk were nothing but mad.

The point of salvation is the point of an obedience never before seen in your life. You can't explain it and you can't fake it. You can't induce it. You can't get rid of it. God did it. While we're commanded to repent, I believe when we do, it's not really voluntary--back to the list righteousness. Repentance doesn't save us, but if we're saved we have these new minds and no longer think like we once did. Lazarus didn't decide to rise. You decided to follow God because you wanted to do so. Who put that desire there when there was only black sin? The same Person who raised Laz.

That is the pattern of Scripture.

Having smeared the mud on that particular lense in a new and creative way only a smart fella like me could possibly do, I have a question for you:

Could you give us a quick run down of the changes you mention in the American Evangelical church during the 1800's? I have done reading on that history in the 20th century; you seem to know of the 19th. I have books on that, but haven't read them yet. Perhaps you could give us some good books to read.

Would you be willing to do a blog post on that? Or a series? I'll be glad to post that here or refer to your blog or both--your choice. I want to know, but it will be months before I get to that reading.

Meanwhile, remember that book by McCune I mentioned to you some time ago? Promise Unfilled, The Failed Strategy of Modern Evangelicalism.

That book will turn most Evangelical crania inside out. Nearly every national evangelical leader of the 20th century from about 1950 on was an out and out whore and a pretender, keeping secrets from the flock.

Many preached the gospel or something close, but behind the scenes, they were hobnobbing with, supporting, taking money from, giving money to, employing in their colleges and seminaries, praying with, and otherwise in colluding with known false teachers that would have gotten them in hot water with their laymen.

The laypeople were actually innocent to the extent they knew little or nothing of this. Of course, many didn't want to know...

It's a great book, not because it's bombastic (it isn't), but because it lays all this out and does so with footnotes and documentation worthy of any history book. The scholarship is tight, the writing is matter-of-fact, not preachy or whiny.

I was shocked in every chapter. Lots of the stuff I knew. But there were things and folks involved that I had never guessed.

So, could you help us?

Great to hear from you,
Phil Perkins.

Phil Perkins said...

PK,
One more thought that pertains to what you point out. Notice how Dr. Darrell brags about saving 9,000, but less that 1/4 of them obeyed and were baptized?

Then were they saved? Don't suppose Dr. D's fibbing, do you?

Nah--preachers don't lie.

And see that he (all by himself) saved 10 times more than attend his church? How does that happen, unless he preaches exclusively to carnies and migrant farm workers?

Perhaps, he got 9,000 folks to pray the prayer and think they're going to heaven. He just innoculated 9,000 folks from the gospel. They think they already have it. Guys like this clown are going to have a very hot spot in hell.

The Lesson: Arminianism matters.

Phil.

Phil Perkins said...

PK,
One more thing. (You've got some of my juices fowing.)

In the NT we see statements that imply one isn't saved unless one's baptized. Some have gone on to say baptizm saves. This is heresy. But if you won't obey the first command given to a convert, you haven't repented. You're not converted. Spurgeon said that a man who wilfully and knowingly refuses to obey isn't saved. I thing that's the point of those passages.

Your input?

Phil.

Prodigal Knot said...

Phil,

I'm going to answer your last question first, if you do not mind. I agree with Spurgeon's take on obeying the commandments of Christ. Any so-called Christian who wants to argue about whether or not they should be baptized is a rebellious person and does not have a heart to serve God. Ipso facto: they are not born again!

Now, in the fellowship I worship with, the implication is that a person is not born again until they are baptized. I realize you regard that as heresy, but there is quite a lot of historical, as well as scriptural support for that notion. In the verse I referred to, Jesus told Nicodemus, who was aware that Christ and His disciples were already preaching the gospel and baptizing repentant Jews. Both Luke and Matthew state that John's baptism was part and parcel of his instruction to the Jews to repent(Luke 3:3, Mark 1:4).

Jesus puts the two ideas together in a way that Nicodemus understood meant that Jesus commended John's methodology and that of his disciples who took up the process (John 4:1-2). The well known response of Peter to those who were convicted of their guilt in the death of Jesus was to, "Repent and be baptized..." Throughout the Word of God we see both the grace of God as well as the means of that grace toward those who follow His commandments, as in the Israelites who were being bitten by the serpents. The brass serpent did not heal those who followed Moses' instructions, but those who didn't look at the image were not healed either. Baptism does not save, in and of itself, I agree. But, the scriptures imply very strongly, that baptism is

1. when a circumcision of a person's heart occurs (by the Spirit)Galatians 2:11-12
2. when one's sins are washed away (figuratively or truly?) Acts 22:16
3. when one becomes united with Christ in a "burial" and a "likeness of His death" (Romans 6:2-5)
4. when one is clothed with Christ's righteousness - Galatians 3:27
5. when "our hearts (are) sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water - Hebrews 10:22
etc., etc.

continued...

Prodigal Knot said...

My point is not that baptism saves us, but it is part of the means of becoming part of the body of Christ.

Peter avers that baptism does indeed save us in the sense that the same waters that destroyed sin (a type of baptism) also rescued Noah and his family from sin's cause and effect (eternal destruction) by the means of the ark and by going in when God commanded them to, God himself closing the door. - 1 Peter 3:20-21

In conjunction with my belief that baptism is necessary, I did not study baptism before I was convinced of it. It did not come from my religious upbringing (their churches don't even have a baptistery), but I was convinced of my need to be baptized soon after I believed and not by a sermon or anything I had knowingly read. I believe the Spirit of God led me down the path of scriptural conversion by granting me faith and repentance and all that remained for me to be united with Christ, to become wholly His, was to be immersed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I did not believe it was to wash away my sins or "save" me, but I was convinced I was not "in the ark of safety" until I obeyed the command "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Only later did I come to the conclusion that the Spirit led me to be baptized since, in my ignorance, I didn't know it was the exact same thing as "looking upon the brass serpent". God commands; we must obey. Anything less is haughtiness and rebellion against God.

I hope that clarifies what I believe is scriptural. Does this mean people who were not baptized, but loved God and served him will not inherit eternal life? If scripture is what we'll be judged by (John 12:48), then scripture must be obeyed. God is a just God. Only He can decide who is saved and who is not. We can only obey scripture as God reveals it to us and it will only be revealed to those who seek the truth. Some may have been baptized in a less than perfect sense, from man's point of view. God judges the hearts; man the appearance. Thank God I am not the judge of men's souls!

Along with that, I agree with your statement that we are forbidden to judge outsiders (the unsaved). Why do so many churches spend so much time condemning those who are already condemned? Because they aren't right with God either and love to think themselves above all those "bad" folk. So, we must be careful to never truly consider ourselves "holy" but strive for holiness in any case.

My biggest problem with people who make baptism of no import, or vice versa, of most import, is that faith is key. Faith and repentance must precede anything we do or it is a work only. And on that same note, we know that faith without works is dead. Similarly in the great chapter of faith, Hebrews 11, all those mentioned as great people of faith did something that proved their faith.

Prodigal Knot said...

As far as what to read....my I don't know where to start.

I can only list many of the books I have read that influenced me, in the order I read them:

Eusebius--the church history: a new translation with commentary / Paul L. Maier (Eusebius seems like a good guy, but does he ever fawn over Constantine!)

Theology in America: Christian thought from the age of the Puritans to the Civil War / E. Brooks Holifield.

The Anabaptist story / William R. Estep

The myth of a Christian nation: how the quest for political power is destroying the church / Gregory A. Boyd (though I detest his "open" theology)

Mayflower: a story of courage, community, and war / Nathaniel Philbric (made me rethink a lot of presumptions about the Puritans)

One hundred tons of ice: and other gospel stories / Lawrence Wood (modern evangelicalism at it's weakest)

Plain Mr. Knox / Elizabeth Whitley

Salvation at stake: Christian martyrdom in early modern Europe / Brad S. Gregory

Wayward Christian soldiers: freeing the Gospel from political captivity / Charles Marsh

A.D. 381: heretics, pagans and the dawn of the monotheistic state / Charles Freeman (made me rethink the validity of any church tradition that followed on the heels of Constantine's success in "buying the favor" of the church in exchange for secular support)

America's God: from Jonathan Edwards to Abraham Lincoln / Mark A. Noll (a good survey, though insufficiently deep, of Americanized evangelicalism)

Christless Christianity : the alternative gospel of the American church / Michael Horton (excellent rebuttal of modern evangelical approaches)

The Invitation System / Iain H. Murray

Cane Ridge: America's Pentecost (Curti Lecture Series) / Paul K. Conkin (a very unbiased view of the physical "exercises" witnessed here that presaged what we now call "holy rolling", "holy laughter", and so on)

A History of the Moravian Church / J.E. Hutton, M.A (A very thorough and unapologetic recounting of this church and it's multi-faceted history. Hutton shows us all the warts as well as as the good. I was persuaded that much of this movement was man-made and lacking godly direction despite it's growth)

Who Healeth All Thy Diseases: Health, Healing, and Holiness in the Church of God Reformation Movement (Revitalization: Explorations in World Christian Movements Pentecostal and Charismatic Studies) / Michael S. Stephens (A very succinct, yet in-depth analysis of the influence of secular thought and teaching on the so-called holiness and divine healing practices of the Churches of God (Restoration) - what I was raised in)

I also recommend the following:

The Faith: A History of Christianity / Brian Moynahan

and

The Birth of the Church: From Jesus to Constantine, AD 30-312 (Baker History of the Church) / Ivor J. Davidson

Phil Perkins said...

PK,
Thanks for the bibliography. You did a lot of work there. Thank you very much.

As to baptism, I'm not so sure you're into heresy, but you're definitely into some problems, both biblically and logically.

First, think of this. Like me, you say that anyone unbaptized is unsaved. And like me you came to that conclusion based on what regeneration means, as does Spurgeon.

I want to say this gently and I hope you'll consider what I have to say. Remember Heigel? Remember the dialectic? Well, he wasn't completely correct. Often two opposing opinions can be so controversial that the parties actually start moving in opposite directions. Perhaps, that's what you've done. One man worships Mary. Another knows that's bunk. The danger is that the second man reacts emotionally and ignores the role of Mary altogether.

Just consider it, please.

As to the Scripture, I looked them all up. For instance, your strongest ones are Hebrews 10 and Acts 22. In Hebrews, we're dealing with figurative language. Our hearts aren't physical, so real water and real sprinkling isn't the deal. Parsimonious interpretation would seem to indicate the analogy carries through the rest of the sentence. And the circumstances agree. Those baptized in the Jordan weren't in pure water. In Acts, the idea of "when" isn't there. Even the idea of causation isn't there. The idea of correlation is there, but correlation doesn't necessarily include causation or simultaneity.

Now you could use this same sort of hermeneutical method and say that under the Old Covenant, the priest made atonement for the sin of the individuals bringing sacrifices. Hebrew Bible actually says that in that language all through Leviticus. You really don't want to go there. If this isn't figurative, Abraham's faith wasn't reckoned to him as righteousness.

The logical problem is you have said that baptism results from turning to God in repentance. That means the man has already been converted. Was Moses converted? Was the thief on the cross?

AND Jesus declared Zaccheus saved in Luke 19:9. He wasn't baptised yet.

Acts 16. "What must I do to be saved?" Verse 31. "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." Verse 33. "...and immediately he was baptized..." Notice the order.

Also see the story of Philip and the Eunuch. The Eunuch was required to already believe with his whole heart. That's conversion.

Just, please, consider these things. I offer them honestly and as gently as possible.

You're absolutely right. Folks who aren't baptized aren't saved. But it's a heart thing, not a baptism thing. Like all the other stuff on the list, it's an indication, not a cause.

Which brings me to this unbiblical phrase the Reformers brought with them. "Means of grace". That's horrible. We should have left it with the Catholics. There is one means of grace, the work of God in the atonement and in His regeneration of His chosen saints. Salvation is the monergistic deed of God alone.

And again, I see you've done a lot of work to get all those books to us. Thank you.

In Him,
Phil.

Prodigal Knot said...

Phil,

I agree that the Hebrews 10:22 verse is absolutely figurative and I couldn't prove baptism with it. However, it does point to the requirements God mandated for the priests and that leads to the real question: what happened if the priest didn't follow the process exactly as God prescribed? We know that "the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins", but we do know that if the procedures involved in the prescribed sacrifices were not followed the priest would be failing to provide for the people what God mandated.

Would God be compelled to forgive the people anyway, if the High Priest neglected to follow the pattern set forth on the Day of Atonement? No....God would simply kill the High Priest and I am sure the people would have needed to resume the process with the next priest in line until it was done properly.

Please correct me if I am wrong in these conclusions. As you said, a true Christian will be baptized, so, in a way, you are saying that is what marks (or seals) a person as a true follower of Christ. It is significant or it isn't. No way around it.

It either matters or it doesn't, and if it doesn't matter then there are a lot of verses that mean nothing at all to a person trying to understand God's will and requirements.

When people tell me things like, "It doesn't matter how or when you re baptized, as long as you are", they are making two arguments: baptism doesn't matter, but you need to be. Doesn't make any sense at all to me that way.

I'd go a lot farther, but do not have time yet. This just keeps this alive for now, I reckon.

Peace and grace!